Curse

Inde · Sep 11, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

SF - first question in the video. Just more of an FYI to see what Linsey said about it:

http://www.youtube.com/user/arenanet...11/-3ScVRiFm3A

Martin Alvito · Sep 11, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Just confirms everything that I've ever said about how the influence of ANet's marketing department corrupted the game. The second that you stop maximizing the quality of the game to pander to a certain segment of that audience, your game is doomed.

ANet painted themselves into a corner on this one, just as they did with Ursan. By permitting a community to grow up around an obviously overpowered skill rather than be proactive about the issue, they set the stage for the exodus (her words) when they resolve the issue.

upier · Sep 11, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It illustrates the huge range of skills which Shadow Form bypasses. I'd argue that instead of areas being badly designed, it's Shadow Form which is badly designed.

But the POINT of the current SF is to be badly designed (=obscenely overpowered).
That's why it doesn't make sense to even bring PvP near it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

SF - first question in the video. Just more of an FYI to see what Linsey said about it:

http://www.youtube.com/user/arenanet...11/-3ScVRiFm3A

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=116
Ahh yes, it seems I will giggle!

Jeydra · Sep 11, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But the POINT of the current SF is to be badly designed (=obscenely overpowered).
That's why it doesn't make sense to even bring PvP near it.

What do you mean? If the current Shadow Form is obscenely overpowered / badly designed, then all the more reason to fix it right?

upier · Sep 11, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What do you mean? If the current Shadow Form is obscenely overpowered / badly designed, then all the more reason to fix it right?

The problem is that this bad design isn't an error.
It's intentional.
Or better yet, they are willing to overlook this bad design because they are following different goals.

Bitoku Kishi · Sep 11, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Whether or not they intend to really change it, I think the best way to nerf SF (which badly needs a nerf), would actually involve a fairly simple change, that I feel would be a very effective way towards stopping the problems associated with it in the PvE game.

Here's how the skill reads now:
Energy Cost = 10
Casting Time = 1
Recharge Time = 45
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...18...21 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health.

Here's how I think it should be to fix it's problems:
Energy Cost = 10
Casting Time = 1
Recharge Time = 30
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...18...21 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health. You cannot activate Shadow Form while enchanted with Shadow Form.

What do you all think?

MagmaRed · Sep 11, 2009, 08:18 PM // 20:18

There isn't ANYTHING wrong with Shadow Form. Touch skills will damage someone using it. Signets will damage someone using it. Non targeted skills will damage someone using it. Wells and Traps will damage someone using it. The problem is that those sources of damage are not common in PvE, at least not in the areas being abused by SF farming. And since you can maintain SF permanently, you have nothing to fear. Remove the permanent upkeep and those areas are no longer farmable, or at least not at the same speed. Stopping the farm long enough to let SF recharge will make a lot of people stop using it. Making sure your build will keep you alive to reach a spot to let SF recharge will stop a lot of people from using it.

SF isn't a problem. Perma is. I don't even see a problem with UW. It can be done by a balanced team in HM (I know, cause I've done it). It can't be done fast, or 'easy', but it can be done. The problem would be if it couldn't be done, or if it could be done too fast/easy.

You can use SF in PvP, but you can't make it perma. If they found a way to do that for PvE it would fix 90% of the problems SF has caused.

Age · Sep 11, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by KZaske

I whole heartedly disagree. SF (Shadow Form) is the problem. The various areas themselves don't really have a problem as almost any well balanced team, properly played, can clear almost any area. Shadow form has allowed a single profession to rule almost the entire game with a skill set based on a single skill.
On the other side of this mess Shadow Form has allowed assassins be be welcomed into every team for almost anything & everything. Prior to Shadow Form Assassins were the least played of all the professions, even mesmers had more play time. Depending on how they go about "adjusting" Shadow Form, we may see Assassins become a playable PvE profession or we may see them become mules but I really doubt they will still be the farming Kings or Queens they are today.
As for your second point, "In order to truly fix farming, ANet has..." Who said they want to "Fix farming?" What they really want to see is team play, at least that is the impression I got from the live team Q&A at PAX.

As I see it, ANet's only real fault is in taking so long in fixing Shadow Form.

I wouldn't say they would be mules mostly just doing AB as they are good at that.

To MagmaRed It is the skill as any Sin can do about anything in pve farm,run (solo)and in normal game play.They are the most used solo class in the game as no one can solo The Realm of Torrment unlike the Sin.

Reformed · Sep 11, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

They are the most used solo class in the game as no one can solo The Realm of Torrment unlike the Sin.

I think you mean Domain of Anguish...and 600/famine/smite is almost entirely responsible for the foundry rush. Back when they were over 100k each and it meant something. No other setup even comes close.

Age · Sep 11, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

I think you mean Domain of Anguish...and 600/famine/smite is almost entirely responsible for the foundry rush. Back when they were over 100k each and it meant something. No other setup even comes close.

No.I am talking about where you get the elemental staff from and Sins are the only class that can get it.

ArlanKels · Sep 11, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

The problem isn't with Shadowform, it's with the maps.
Put in "speedbumps", things that are solid visible threats to the speed runners. A group of nasty buggerboos packing anti-shadowform skills, which are grouped with things meant to target 600s on top of that.

That would most likely fix it, eh?

sleepybidder · Sep 11, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

i dont think nerfing shadowform will change solo farming, not at least when 600 is active. At least people still do sc with 8 people due to the fact that every sin is useful for clearing, if shadowform is nerfed, will we see 8 players playing with a 600? everyone will be off to make a 600 to farm stuff, and anything more then 3 people in 600 smite dungeons are useless. so whats next? 3 people with 5 leechers doing sc in DOAs or other dungeons?

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Just confirms everything that I've ever said about how the influence of ANet's marketing department corrupted the game. The second that you stop maximizing the quality of the game to pander to a certain segment of that audience, your game is doomed.

ANet painted themselves into a corner on this one, just as they did with Ursan. By permitting a community to grow up around an obviously overpowered skill rather than be proactive about the issue, they set the stage for the exodus (her words) when they resolve the issue.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that this bad design isn't an error.
It's intentional.

Which is even more stupid and hilarious. Its time people realize that there has been MUCH more of an exodus over Anet doing stupid crap like this (inbalancing their game) rather than an exodus over required nerfs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlenKels

The problem isn't with Shadowform, it's with the maps.

I've been thinking about this theory Bryant and some others have come up with that "it is the design of the areas fault". The more I think about it the more stupid I think it is really. That is like saying you could introduce one inbalanced fighter into a fighting game and that makes the entire game inbalanced. No...it just means that fighter is.

Bryant Again · Sep 12, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I've been thinking about this theory Bryant and some others have come up with that "it is the design of the areas fault". The more I think about it the more stupid I think it is really. That is like saying you could introduce one inbalanced fighter into a fighting game and that makes the entire game inbalanced. No...it just means that fighter is.

Here's why you're insanely difficult to talk to, Dreamwind.

Not only are you completely misinterpreting what I'm saying, you're being unnecessarily rude about it. What gives?

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Here's why you're insanely difficult to talk to, Dreamwind.

Not only are you completely misinterpreting what I'm saying, you're being unnecessarily rude about it. What gives?

Sorry if I came off that way. I didn't mean to.

Let me get this straight. Basically you are saying the mobs have issues. Ok I can agree with that. But they have always had issues. That has nothing to do with SF being ridiculous though.

Bryant Again · Sep 12, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Sorry if I came off that way. I didn't mean to.

Let me get this straight. Basically you are saying the mobs have issues. Ok I can agree with that. But they have always had issues. That has nothing to do with SF being ridiculous though.

That's what I haven't been saying.

What I have been saying is that nothing's really going to change with SF nerfed given the rest of the game, given all the other methods of farming. The only reason they are nerfing it is because everyone's crying about it.

The game's not going to be "massively broken", it's going to be "pretty broken", and that's still not something you'd want to write home about.

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's what I haven't been saying.

What I have been saying is that nothing's really going to change with SF nerfed given the rest of the game, given all the other methods of farming. The only reason they are nerfing it is because everyone's crying about it.

The game's not going to be "massively broken", it's going to be "pretty broken", and that's still not something you'd want to write home about.

Theres a big difference between something that is good and something that clearly broken. I wouldn't expect Anet to immediately nerf something good. If something is clearly broken, it should be immediately killed regardless of all the other factors.

Bryant Again · Sep 12, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Theres a big difference between something that is good and something that clearly broken. I wouldn't expect Anet to immediately nerf something good. If something is clearly broken, it should be immediately killed regardless of all the other factors.

Soloing areas isn't broken?

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2009, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Soloing areas isn't broken?

Yes it is.

Bryant Again · Sep 12, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes it is.

Then let's go back a bit. Ever wonder why you're the only person I have to repeat and fully explain myself to?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

In order to fix SF, the team could've gone through two routes:

1. Nerf SF directly, or
2. Fix the areas SF sees the most use, effectively making it less farmable AS A WHOLE via other professions/etc. and allowing ANet to better deal with farming in the future.

Obviously it's a lot easier to just fix one thing as opposed to multiple (in this case, the "multiple problems" refer to current, past and future farming methods of the area), but the disadvantage in that is that the areas are still borked up.

We're only delaying problems, not fixing them, when we don't remedy the opposition the players face.

And wow, already this thread looks like shit...Sorry, guys!